NRC：Last year we've seen a bit of relaxation first in China-US ties and then in China-Europe ties after a few tense years. Have you felt that there have been some concrete improvements? Could you name an example?

Ambassador Tan: I did feel that there were improvements over last year. One major event was the summit meeting between President Xi and President Biden in San Francisco during the APEC meeting. It was a very successful meeting. They have reached extensive consensus on many important issues. The conversation was frank, substantial. We should implement what has been agreed upon by the two leaders. I do hope this year, in spite of the US election, we can improve bilateral relations.

NRC: Can you be a bit more specific when you say that it's important that it needs to be implemented what has been agreed on?

Ambassador Tan: For instance, the US has made it very clear that they don't want to start a new cold war, they are observing the one China principle, and they do not want to contain China. We hope that we can implement and improve. There are also agreements on many fronts, politically, economically, the resumption of contacts between the two militaries, setting up working groups to fight climate change and so on. The bilateral relations not only relate to the two peoples, they also relate to the global stability, prosperity and development. Likewise, the relations between China and EU are also very important, not only for the peoples of the EU and China, but also for the rest of the world.

NRC: Are you worried about the US elections?

Ambassador Tan: I will not use the word worried, this is something internal. But I think that there might be some negative things happen. If politicians would like to explore this issue, then we have to face it. Whatever happened we will face to the reality.

NRC: And when you say negative things, what are you thinking about?

Ambassador Tan: US politics is polarized. The democrats and republicans disagree on everything, except for being tougher on China. This is something we have seen, we have heard. This is the reality. We have to face it. We heard that they could be rational, they could be pragmatic. They should face the truth rather than talking about something based on speculation or imagination.

NRC: China-EU summit was something that had not happened for a long time, and it seems there weren't so many concrete outcomes. Do you think something has improved there?

Ambassador Tan: I just now talked about the China-US summit. There was also a China-EU summit, held on the 7th of December last year, President of the European Council Charles Michel and President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen went to Beijing.

There were many phone calls between President of China, Premier of China, with the EU leaders and many leaders of EU countries. There were a lot of high level exchanges last year, and there were also a lot of agreements, like we were assured that the European Union is not for decoupling where they are saying de-risking right there. Both sides agree that this is a very important relationship. Last year marked the 20th anniversary of the relations between the EU which we called comprehensive strategic cooperation. We do see this relationship as strategic, as I said, it has not only benefited our two peoples, but also benefited the world in terms of peace, prosperity, and development.

NRC: What is the relationship between the improving of the ties with America and with Europe? The timing are too related or US came first.

Ambassador Tan: We support the strategic autonomy of Europe. We see Europe as a pillar in the multipolar world. We attach importance and we would like to have good relations with Europe. Having said that we also acknowledge many EU countries, if not all, have very close relations with US and are allies to the US. So it is a fact that the improvement of the China-US relationship — if we can improve, will of course have a positive impact on the China-EU relationship.

But we hope our relationship can develop with or without the development of China-US relations. It should not be subjected to the China-US relations, because we are important players in the world. If it is somewhat or seriously affected by the China-US relations, I don't think that is good, because who knows how the US will treat us? If they treat us in the hegemonic way, of course we will respond. I don't think China-EU relations should suffer.

NRC: When it comes to the relation with the EU, clearly in the EU there's a tendency to more economic sovereignty. Especially since Covid, there was like the realization in Europe that that we are depending a lot on other parts of the world. When it comes to medicine or protective equipment, like mouth masks, etc. How do think? Do you feel that this is affecting the relations between China and the EU?

Ambassador Tan: I think we need to talk so that it will not affect our relations. There is the possibility that this could affect our relations, but I do see the readiness on EU and our side to discuss about it. For example, there was an issue, de-risking as you call it, that has been discussed by our leaders last December. If the risk as you mentioned, is raised because of the Ukraine crisis or Covid, it is understandable. But if raised because of geopolitical considerations, seeing China as a rival, then it could be de-risking in cover and decoupling in essence. That is the suspect of some people, it is unacceptable and should be opposed to.

NRC: Can you be a bit more specific about this? Because, for example EU companies are obliged to fulfill with certain standards. And there is always this fear in Europe that maybe Chinese products are not fulfilling these standards entirely. There was carbon tax on the border, right? Which I think was also an attempt to keep out products that are competing too much with European products. Is this the kind of things you were talking about when you're saying geopolitical approach?

Ambassador Tan: Some EU countries exercise some import control, saying that they should not allow Chinese products to come to the market because they rely or depend too much on China, because of the high percentage of the Chinese products, in the name of de-risking. That is something we are opposed to. We have our reservations and oppositions to that. We should be very careful in addressing those issues as it will affect our economic relations. It will also have global impacts like the disruption of global supply chain, not to mention the free and fair trade principle that we should uphold.

Why we trade? What is globalization? It is because of mutual need. But if people misinterpret mutual need, exaggerate security concerns, that could be very complicated. We should not misinterpret mutual dependence or mutual need, wrongly calling it as risks. We need each other. I don't think it's the right way to call this kind of need as security risks. And we should be against overstretching the concept of security, which is detrimental to free and fair trade, and do not politicize those issues. There is an English saying: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

NRC: I think we actually had a question, about the ASML export controls that were widened a bit this month. Should we expect some countermeasures still for this?

Ambassador Tan: We don't want to see things go from bad to worse. We should enhance dialogue, understand each other and see how we can join hands or work together. So I would say the dialogue has been there and has been going on. We welcome that.

NRC: Are you reassured by what you're hearing from ASML in front of Dutch government?

Ambassador Tan: I won’t say reassured, because things are not improving. They are widening export control, we don't think that is the correct way. China is not using these machines to produce something detrimental, which will negatively affect the security of the Europeans. We are producing memory chips, not logic chips, which I don't think there should be security concern. We need the machine and you want to sell the machine. So this is normal trade.

NRC: Why do you think these measures are being taken? Do you think these measures are aimed at slowing China's development? What is your interpretation of this?

Ambassador Tan: Let me talk in the Dutch direct way: it's because of the US pressure, pure and simple. And why does the US exert this kind of pressure? Because they see China as the most consequential geopolitical challenge.

NRC: Yeah, but there's the military threats elements, and there's China's economic development. Those are not the same concern, right?

Ambassador Tan: As I’ve said, they are overstretching the concept of security. Take China's EV cars for example, which are good for the improvement of environment, cannot enter into US market. There are so many things which post no threat, not to mention military threat. So that's the issue. And the US is not only doing this itself, it is also calling or pressuring its allies to do that while it is pointing China as coercive diplomacy. I see this as coercive.

NRC: Maybe this is a strange way to put it, you could also see it as a huge compliment, because obviously they are worried about the incredible development China has made.

Ambassador Tan: While we feel the pain, the pressure, I don't think we're in the mood to see it as a compliment. How many Chinese companies are suffering?

NRC: You see an impact in China?

Ambassador Tan: Yes, of course. It is not only for China. I don't think it’s in the interest of the Netherlands, of the world. As I’ve said, it is disrupting the global supply chain.

NRC: So what is the way forward? For example, to ASML, what are you asking the Dutch government? What are you asking ASML?

Ambassador Tan: We are talking with the government, and we are explaining our position, our requests. We hope there could be more understanding. We hope they will be more cautious in the so called export control. We hope they could stand the pressure. We were assured by the Dutch government that they will make their own assessment and decisions, take into account the impact on the global supply chain and the free and fair trade principle, which we appreciate. We hope that these words can be translated into actions.

NRC: You would hope it doesn't go further than this.

Ambassador Tan: I hope it would not go further, and I hope they can come back. I hope this is not my wishful hope.

NRC: Last December, there was A decision by China unilaterally to introduce visa free entry for businesses and tourism from five EU countries. I think a lot of people are wondering about the choice of the countries. So why was the Netherlands chosen as part of these five countries?

Ambassador Tan: The Netherlands is important, as ambassador I'm so happy that it is on the list of the five European countries. We have very good, or basically very important bilateral relations. We see a lot of countries in Europe with larger population, yet economically speaking, the Netherlands is very important to China. Our bilateral trade is second only to the Germany, larger than many other EU countries.

NRC: Is it also in the top five of personnel exchange?

Ambassador Tan: I don't have the number, but I do know that during the Covid period, the air corridor between China and the Netherlands was never suspended, which was the only country in Europe. Other EU countries saw suspension for a certain period and some even for a very long period. Talking about trade and investment, the Netherlands is the largest destination of Chinese investment to Europe, and it is the second largest source of investment to China. So I say the Netherlands is not a small country, it's a country larger than its size may suggest. It punches above its weight. For the Netherlands, global business is something in the blood. So that's why over 3 years and more here, I’ve been trying to highlight the importance of bilateral relations, including economic relations. I'm working very hard to promote the Netherlands in China and promote China in the Netherlands. People to people connection is very important. In China, there is a saying the amity of the people holds the key to sound state-to-state relations..

NRC: But this was not a time when these investment and flows were very high. People are also curious, what is the intention of China to do this now?

Ambassador Tan: Good intention, of course, to promote people to people relations, connectivity and business. I don't know whether our trade or investment increased, but the figure is very large. So my job is to maintain the momentum and bring it to new high. We need to maintain the momentum to catch up what might have been lost during Covid. China is pursuing high quality growth and high level opening. So you might see more and more measures in this regard.

NRC: I am still wondering why only five EU countries, not all 27.

Ambassador Tan: As Chinese we do things in a gradual way, like the reform and opening-up. We do some experimental things first, and see how it goes. We announced that as a trial for one year, but I do hope it will be extended. This is not just for travel, but also from the perspective of China's high level opening-up and high quality growth. We need more talk, we need more exchange. It's not only high-level visits or exchanges between government officials, there should also be more exchanges in business, academia and media fields. We are reaching out and we are opening wider.

NRC: China is opening yet sometimes we could get the feeling that China is also in a protective mood. For example when you say that China’s economic sovereignty is extremely important. It could also be interpreted as China is actually closing itself because you want to be autonomous in a way and not dependent on others. So do you feel there is a contradiction between this development we see sometimes in China and what you're saying about opening up to the world?

Ambassador Tan: I don't think we are are adopting protectionism. In general, we are opening. Sometimes we adopt measures as a reaction to those protective measures by some western countries, the US in highlight. This is a reaction because diplomacy is all about reciprocity. They create obstacles and we have to do something. Otherwise their appetite may grow with their eating. So please don't take our reaction as protectionism. In general, we want to be more integrated into the global market.

NRC: Do you think it's like a bit similar also within this larger environment of geopolitical uncertainty? In a way, Europe's strategic autonomy and China's reactive or sort of autonomy. Is there a bit of similar motivation as well?

Ambassador Tan: The measures taken by some western countries have made it very clear that on some sectors we have to depend on ourselves. It is a choice imposed upon us, not our intention in the first place.

NRC: When you say sectors, you mean, for example, the chip industry?

Ambassador Tan: Yes, when I was taking interview from FD last time, I said if they do not sell grain to us, then we have to grow it ourselves. We hope that we can continue to rely on the reliable, predictable supply. However, when the contract signed could not be honored or implemented, it is an issue, right? We are weighing the impacts of those kind of unilateral measures, even sanctions upon Chinese companies. But still, it is our sincere hope that we can have free and fair trade.

NRC: But in a way, China has also been very successful in combining openness with security concerns, whether you call it protectionism of not. You could also say that in a way the rest of the world has been learning from China.

Ambassador Tan: No. We are learning from you. And the protectionist is not what I use.

NRC: But China has also closed some sectors to foreign investment. There's been different kinds of balancing of economic openness with national security.

Ambassador Tan: Countries may also want to develop economies, sectors, especially those kind of infant industry. Our focus is not on protecting some sectors, but on new sectors, the sunrise sector such as green economy or digital economy. China was very brave in closing many factories in the 1990s. Even today China has closed many polluting factories. Our real focus is to achieve a green transition. That's why we have spent so much human resources and financial resources on renewable energy development. We are really the champion. For the last several years, according to the International Energy Agency, China accounts for more than half of the newly installed renewable energy capacity globally in terms of the speed and scale. China is the number one in the world. That is our real focus: innovative and green economy.

NRC: Do you think that maybe the European position is also inspired by how China has reacted until now in Ukraine crisis? How do you feel the impact of this war so far on the China-Europe relationship?

Ambassador Tan: Frankly speaking, I understand the feelings of the Europeans to see it taking place in Europe, what you call a war, what we call a crisis.

NRC: You don't call it a war.

Ambassador Tan: We call it Ukraine crisis.

NRC: But there are bombs falling every day on Ukraine. It's pretty violent.

Ambassador Tan: Yes. I think it is a kind of a conflict. But I do wish to say that our position has been very clear: China is for peace, for political solution of this crisis. And we have made it very clear that we respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries. And we should uphold the UN Charter. And China has provided no weapons or military support.

NRC: So when you say territorials, integrity of countries, do you mean?

Ambassador Tan: Including Ukraine.

NRC: Including Ukraine? So Ukraine has the right to take back what was Ukrainian before?

Ambassador Tan: I will not go into that details, because I'm not an expert on those things. Each country may have their own history and their own saying. But as a matter of principle, I would say that China has nothing to do with the outbreak of this crisis and China is an Asian country, not a European country.

NRC: I think sometimes European diplomats are disappointed that China was not taking their worries about Ukraine as seriously as they would want. So it does seem to have affected the relationship to some extent.

Ambassador Tan: That's sad. It's not only China. If you look globally at many developing countries, have you found similar opinions to that of China? I don't know why the Europeans single out China in that way. China is very large, but India now has a larger population. So I ask you to take a look why those developing countries have some views which may not be the same as the Europeans.

NRC: But you previously talked a lot about the importance of multilateralism, the importance of opening up. Do you feel the acts of Russia have contributed to world peace?

Ambassador Tan: Next month Munich Security Conference will be held. Russia has been there many times and voiced its concerns or frustration. I don't know whether those concerns were heeded. I do hope that countries can talk to each other. We have also raised our concerns, and I don't think I've heard good response. Talking about NATO, a major player in this issue, either as the cause or as the result, we could not understand why NATO invited heads of state or government of some Pacific countries like Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand to NATO summit. Why they are planning to open office in Japan or inviting South Korea or Japan to participate in their activities? Why do many NATO countries do military exercise in the West Pacific? These are our questions. What if Chinese military ships do this also in the name of freedom of navigation, sail to the North Atlantic and do some military exercises? I do hope that we could enhance exchanges, listen to each other and know about each other's concerns.

NRC: I understand all of this, but there is a country in Europe being bombed every day and innocent people are dying.

Ambassador Tan: This is sad. I think country in Europe, as you said, is now having a hard time where people are dying. There’s also a country or territory in the Middle East suffering, right? These are all the things we can discuss about. We are for in-depth or real discussion, we are for political settlement. I do hope that there could be immediate ceasefire, be it in Ukraine or in Palestine.

NRC: You mean basically Europe should maybe talk in a more straightforward way to the world?

Ambassador Tan: I will not tell how Europe should do.

NRC: But you're saying that there're a lot of different messages.

Ambassador Tan: I do hope that we will listen to each other and talk to each other. We can learn all the lessons, the lesson of the cold war, the lesson of the Ukraine crisis.

NRC: On the Ukraine and Russia conflicts, one difference China versus other countries is that China is a very important partner of Russia, and economic ties have gotten closer in the past years. In this sense, may the trade going through China be dual use or not? There is also an idea that China is maybe actively supporting Russia.

Ambassador Tan: We also have good relations with Ukraine, right? I want to highlight that China and Russia are not allies. It's not like you and the US. We have made it very clear that China-Russia relations do not target at any third party. Not to mention that we share a border which is 4,300 kilometers long, it's important for us to have good relations. China has good relations with so many countries, not just Russia. Some people are highlighting China's relations with Russia, even speculating or spreading disinformation, saying that China had a prior knowledge of the Russia's activity. That's not true. We are playing our responsible role. We are for peace. We are for ceasefire. We are for political settlement. We are not fueling the situation by providing military support.

NRC: So you call it the conflict, I call it the war in Ukraine, which of course is bad for globalization. We have the war in Gaza, which is also bad for globalization, because as you've seen, the Houthis attacks on shipping, which are probably also going to affect China sooner or later. So we are seeing a lot of conflicts which are not good for globalization, for political dialogue and for trade. So how do we get out of this situation?

Ambassador Tan: Both China and the EU are for multilateralism. We are for strengthening the role of the United Nations. We are for the political settlement of all those issues. We should work along that line instead of making things difficult by spewing rhetoric or taking actions to divide the world, to make it like camp confrontation. China feels keenly on those negatives, labeling some countries democracy, some countries authority. I think we should join hands, like China's Belt and Road Initiative. Some western media or politicians try to speak very negatively about it. When I was the ambassador to Ethiopia, I said that why can't we join hands? If we can work together, North-South cooperation or tripartite cooperation can help the Africa to develop. China is doing its part to help build infrastructure because private sectors don't want to put money in. It's a long term and low return investment. So why can't we do that and why calling China's initiative as something with hidden agenda?

NRC: Some people see it as a fight for natural resources.

Ambassador Tan: We are not for natural resources. When China helped Zambia and Tanzania build a railway road in the 1970s, is that for natural resources? No, not a single ton of copper was exported to China. When I was in Ethiopia, a country with rich natural resources and human resources, we have helped them build Addis Ababa to Djibouti railway, because Ethiopia is a landlocked country, 95% of its trade goes through Djibouti aboard. You raise the question to see things from the prism that the China has the hidden agenda and self interest, what is the self interest of China to build a railway between Zambia and Tanzania? Why can't we work together to synergize the Belt and Road Initiative with EU Global Gateway, instead of seeing them as competitive or rivalry? It takes two to tango. I do hope that with increased and enhanced talk, we can have more understanding.

NRC: We had a few more questions on economic relations, Some things have changed in the relationship and it's de-risking. Do you think collaboration is still possible in these areas where both sides wanted like in climate?

Ambassador Tan: Yeah, we haven't lost our hope. I have high hope on the European Union and the Netherlands.

NRC: Do you hear anything different from the Chinese companies in the Netherlands these years? Because there is still some investment and there's a lot of stock. There are a lot of Chinese companies in this country.

Ambassador Tan: Chinese companies would like to come and many Chinese companies are coming. But the thing is that while they are doing a lot of business here, they also have some complaints. I don't know if you have read the recent report by the China Chamber of Commerce to the EU last year. Based on the survey of the Chinese companies here, the conclusion was that, for the 4th year in the running, Chinese companies in general believe that business environment in the EU has deteriorated. They are facing more scrutiny, political pressure and disinformation which make it more difficult to do business here. But still they are not giving up hope. I would like to pay tribute to those Chinese companies who are still staying here. Many of them are thinking about expanding their business, which is good for both sides. I hope that the EU could heed those findings and complaints from the Chinese companies. That's why we talk, and we hope that the talk could make a difference, at least raise the awareness.

Bilaterally speaking, there is something more fundamental: that is the perception of the EU towards China, the three tiered policy, competition, cooperation and systemic rivalry. We are confused. It’s like a traffic light, green, red and yellow blink at the same time. Especially the systemic rivalry, very harmful. This is a diverse world. It is our right to develop from the low end of the supply chain to the high end, or at least the middle part, for African countries, for many developing countries. So we should have the right to move up, playing by the rules, including intellectual property rights, no forced labor. We do hope that we can remove these hurdles so that bilateral economic relations can have a big development for the good.

NRC: There's a lot of elections this year, European elections, US elections and Dutch elections. We haven't mentioned Taiwan yet, how do you look at the election? Do you think the DPP victory is a geopolitical factor?

Ambassador Tan: I'm still waiting for a (Dutch) government since November 22nd election last year. My major job is to facilitate the exchange, especially high-level visits. But I fully respect and have been working very well with the caretaking government.

About the election in the Taiwan region of China, I wish to express our consistent position. There is but one China in the world and Taiwan is an inalienable part of China. One China principle is universally acknowledged and Taiwan question is an internal affair of China. The result of the election in the Taiwan region cannot change the underlying dynamics and the future direction of the Cross-Strait relations. We see China's reunification as the trend of the times and history. The DPP politicians have been engaging in separatist activities seeking for independence. They have done a lot of things since taking power in 2016, like de-synthetization and incremental independence moves. They denied the 1992 Consensus which the two sides agreed upon on the one China principle. Some of their moves were emboldened and encouraged by some external forces. Another term of the DPP authorities will make the situation of the Taiwan Strait more complex and challenging.

NRC: But they also say that they would like to talk more with China.

Ambassador Tan: If they are denying the 1992 Consensus, what's the point of talking? They're asking us to accept their position for independence, it could be a camouflage in saying those words. Look at their deeds. They have been in power since 2016 and have done a lot of things for independence, and then maybe they are waiting for that time.

NRC: So in a way the relations have been relatively stable.

Ambassador Tan: At least on our side, we have not renounced the use of force, but we are making earnest efforts for peaceful reunification.